Caroline Blair:
Welcome back to another episode of Powering Conversations by SP Energy Networks, where we explore the cutting-edge developments in the energy sector and what they mean for you. I'm your host, Caroline Blair, and today we are diving into a topic that's at the very heart of the energy transition, the shift from distribution network operator, known as DNO for the duration of this podcast to distribution system operator, which we'll refer to as DSO. As we embark on this journey towards a net zero future, our electricity system faces a crucial transformation.
And in this episode, we'll uncover how this evolution from DNO to DSO is not just a technical shift, but a dynamic balancing act of supply and demand essential for achieving our climate goals. But what does this mean for you? Here, to break it down, I'm joined by Nia Lowe, head of DSO at SP Energy Networks. David Flynn, a professor of cyber physical systems at the University of Glasgow and also a member of SP Energy Networks as independent Net Zero Advisory Board. And finally, Grant Spence, director at Net Zero Energy Systems. So thank you all for joining us today. We've got a few titles to break down there and to get through. The starting point, I think for today is to share a bit of your background in terms of how DSO fits into the role that you do and exactly what it is that you do, starting with yourself, Nia.
Nia Lowe:
Ok. Thank you. So I've been working in the industry for over 31 years now, and I've seen a lot of changes during that time, but nothing like the scale that we've got at the moment. And the electricity industry is core to the UK achieving net zero and that's really kind of what's driving all of these changes.
So how we use electricity, how dependent we are on electricity is all changing. That's, it's just a core part of that. And that ripples through everything that we do in the company.
Caroline Blair:
It really is picking up this theme, isn't it? This transformation is huge. And we did cover that in in episode one. And I'm wondering with yourself, David, where you fit into this in terms of your, your title and it is by is, you know, professor of cyber physical systems at the University of Glasgow.
You are also a member of SP energy Networks’ independent net zero advisory board. So there's a fair bit to unpack there. How does your role fit into this conversation today.
David Flynn:
So yeah, I appreciate the challenges in that job title. And I think the best way to navigate it is to consider me as a bit of an architect. Okay. So the area I work in is in that digital architecture. How can organisations like SPEN better connect to their customers as to understand their needs and their future needs, and really bring that into how they develop their operational strategies or service support and future planning. So as a professor of cyber physical systems, it sounds very mysterious, but the best way to describe it would be as a digital architect.
Caroline Blair:
Oh, it's a great title, and that's actually a very helpful breakdown as well. So therefore, Grant, if David is a digital architect, over to you. I'm passing the baton. How do you describe your role?
Grant Spence:
Oh, that's a good question. I'm probably the guy who says, yeah, but how do you do that in practice? I mean, I've been doing this for over 30 years. But what this is, is being very different from, from one year to the next. I've got an electrical mechanical degree. I began the career building gas turbine power stations. But when gas, the dash for gas ended in the 90s, mid 90s, switched into working in networks, became a power systems analyst for a decade. And, but like the big picture, more than the detail. So I ended up jumping back into projects, started, helping lead big, multi-discipline, large low carb energy projects with the Scottish CCS consortium for Longanet 20 years ago and have been helping large groups of stakeholders develop, I guess, mega projects. Low carbon projects ever since, most recently the Lexus switch deployment South Wales industrial cluster and in North Wales, with the North Wales North East Wales industrial decarbonisation Project.
So not just electrification but hydrogen CCS. How do you stick it all together and somehow make it work for a region of the UK?
Caroline Blair:
Well, if you're the man to speak to about big projects, you've certainly picked one there today that that seems seems entirely fitting it. I suppose Nia, over to yourself then, with this question, what exactly is a distribution system operator and why is it so crucial for building a sustainable future? Why are we talking about this today?
Nia Lowe:
It's a very good question. I think you probably get slightly different answers depending on who you ask. For me, it's a key part of how we do that transition. So you know, the industry and the network is going from, you know, a network that was quite passive kind of energy flowed kind of from the high voltages down to low voltages.
You can kind of out to users. We're moving to, you know, a world where you've got generational all the way through. So you think about, you know, kind of even our own homes might have solar panels, we might be charging electric vehicles, we might have batteries. So there's a feed into the network all the way through. We're all wanting to use more energy. The network has to evolve to be able to cope with that and provide that energy for the users. And you can't do that by just building more network. You know, it's not economic. It's not practical to kind of do that, to do that on the scale that it needs to be done.
Caroline Blair:
That feels like the obvious solution.
Nia Lowe:
It’s the easy solution. But but yeah, it's not the best. It's not the best solution. So what we have to do is we have to get the network to work harder and smarter to be able to cope with all of these demands that have been put on it. The DSO is about driving that change in how we use the network, in how we interface with our customers and our stakeholders to understand their plans, their needs, what needs to be built into our forecast, what needs to be built in to what we're building.
And so it's partly kind of external looking to be kind of an advocate for the stakeholder. And it's partly internal looking to challenge the business to change how we do things, to move it forward at pace.
Caroline Blair:
And to make the right choices for the right reasons. So, David, in episode one, we spoke about this, as Nia has just mentioned, this once in a generation transformation that the energy industry is currently undergoing. From the explanation that Nia has just given us, it sounds like DSO is a very key part of that. How then, does a DSO differ from traditional electricity distribution systems that we are familiar with? Can you present that in layman's terms? I suppose.
David Flynn:
I would say the best way to describe it was that the traditional distribution network operator, they were the steward of the power system, and energy typically flowed in one direction.
It was made, it was distributed, it was used. The DSO, so the distribution system operator, something that's that goes out with the technical that's really exciting for me, is it really is about partnership with customers. It's about unlocking flexibility in energy demand and use. So that is one of the key cornerstones of the DSO. How can we get to the lowest cost net zero?
So it's thinking about customers, it’s working with customers. So the DSO is one of the most exciting game changers in the energy landscape in the UK, in my opinion. And the derivable benefits are about being able to reduce costs for customers, ensure that availability of supply and to work in a way that really does safeguard the security of energy services moving forward.
Now the DSO, the reason. So coming back to the engineering, so to speak, the reason we need it is that we have lots of demand converging on that electricity network. We've got heat decarbonising with heat pumps, we've got EVs. Okay. So there's lots of new demand, a lot of distributed generation happening as well. And the DSO really has an integral role to play, to removing barriers to progress and access to the network.
So the DSO very much is a service orientated engine compared to the traditional DNO.
Caroline Blair:
So this is a really key when we're saying that this is a key component of achieving a target of net zero, but also of transformation. But that is very much the case, Grant. There's no there's no dispute?
Grant Spence:
No, without a doubt. And I think the other word I would use, David, is collaboration.
David Flynn:
Absolutely.
Grant Spence:
You know, the energy company used to be the one that sent you the bill once a quarter and came in, knocked your door and read the meter every now and again. We're moving away from that very rapidly. We have to and, you mentioned EVs and heat pumps, David. But the other bit that people tend not to talk about so much, but is just as big in terms of today's energy demand, is industry. It is roughly about one third each between industry and domestic and transport demand. Industry is the one that's much less well understood because you can't characterise it with, say, an EV or a heat pump and then aggregate up by hundreds of thousands to millions and then say, oh, the UK looks a bit like this. Which is why, the project I've been doing this with SP Energy Networks in 24, we were doing 1 to 1 stakeholder engagement with the biggest industrial emitters and energy users in the region and saying to them, can we profile your energy demand? Not just electricity, but gas. How might you decarbonise it? What are the options? And then how does that aggregate up? And what would the impact be on the system?
Caroline Blair:
It must be so individual.
Grant Spence:
Yes, totally. Because it's very bespoke to what an industrial site does. If you then if you're, a steelworks and you make, galvanised or paint coated steel, then you're on site energy demand is going to be very different from, if you're a paper mill and the big thing I guess I've really drawn out for me in the last year was that the future electricity demand that's coming the networks way is not based on anything like present day electricity demand. If on sight industrial demand for energy, if the natural gas demand is 4 or 5 times the present, the electricity demand it’s that that needs to be decarbonised. And the question is how much of that needs to be electrified? So when people are saying, oh, the electricity grid might, might need to be twice the size of today by 2050, you really need to look carefully at industry, because you might have underestimated that. And I think that's one of the reasons why that project we've been doing is, is so valuable.
Caroline Blair:
So it's an essential component for yourselves Nia. And actually both Grant and David have tapped into this next question. So it evolves us quite nicely as in the first episode, we did talk about how the transformation to the network, and the interaction between the energy companies and the customers, how that was evolving and is evolving continues to.
So how will the shift to a DSO model change the way that customers then interact with their electricity? So we've talked about that relationship there between the customer and the energy companies, but between the customer, whether that's businesses or individual home users. How will that shift in terms of the benefits as opposed to people in their homes?
Nia Lowe:
Well, that shift is kind of key to achieving those benefits. So it's you know, the example that Grant was just talking about, is really about that kind of forecast and planning, and it's looking at all the different options because it's not just one option. You know, all of these different options are tools in the toolkit that we can use. There isn't a magic wand which will fix everything.
Caroline Blair:
Wouldn’t that be nice.
Nia Lowe:
Oh, it would be lovely, but yeah.
Grant Spence:
Not really. Then I wouldn’t have a job.
Nia Lowe:
And kind of engineers like the challenge of the kind of solving the solving the problem. So there's, there's a piece around that kind of that collaboration around planning and actually really understanding what the needs are kind of from everybody involved before you can get the best combination of solutions. And, you know, people talk about kind of whole system thinking, you know, basically it's that it's kind of thinking broader than just one topic and just one solution to think what is the best solution.
But the relationship and the interaction with customers and stakeholders goes beyond that. It's not just in the planning stages. Customers are interacting with the network differently now. You know, they want to be active participants. They want to be able to kind of turn up demand, turn down demand and get rewarded for doing that, you know, and this is all part of that toolkit for managing the network.
Now, these flexibility options are key to trying to balance what we're trying to get the network to do. You know, the old way of designing a network was you worked out roughly what you thought the max might be, and then you built enough networks cope with the max. We're not doing that now. We're trying to get as much out of that network as we can.
And you need to be able to react dynamically, and you need to your customers and your connected customers to do the same and react dynamically to be able to balance the network.
Caroline Blair:
And that that's something as simple. Then, and I don't mean to play it down, but in the home that's, you know, the time that you pick to do your laundry.
Nia Lowe:
Yep.
Caroline Blair:
We’re using our system very...and I don't again want to do play down the role that we have played in the past. But it was a very passive user. Certainly in my experience. Now we are much more aware. You feel that there we are a bit more informed, too as well. I mean, I'm wondering what your thoughts are around that in terms of the impact on the end user? And not just not just, individual households, but also the businesses too, as if we've tapped into.
David Flynn:
Absolutely. So, I mean, building on the example that that Grant gives about industry demand for lowest cost energy. So for the benefit of communities, one thing to remember is energy is like a four times multiplier to the cost of manufacturing something in the UK. So if we can use flexibility and partnership as an industrial stakeholder cluster with someone like SPEN as DSO, it's that wealth creation it can really bring to the UK in terms of jobs and economic prosperity, because that's how the UK competes at national and global scales.
Now for customers, there is this reward about your flexibility. You can monetise your flexibility. There are opportunities where if you are producing an energy surplus, you can sell that. And sometimes that's done through the medium of aggregators. Treat them like brokers who can then sell flexibility services to the likes of SPEN as a DSO and be rewarded for that.
It really is something that I think I would like people to appreciate. It's the energy grid around them is one of the most complicated human made systems in the world. Okay, so in a millisecond when you want energy, it has to be available. So the DSO is navigating a kind of future partnership whilst supporting the kind of really complex tolerances of that grid, but opening barriers for more communities and businesses to engage in that network.
I think that's why we're all quite excited, because building future infrastructure takes time, and any carbon we save now because it's a cumulative thing is huge. So yeah, I think it's I think it's about this pathway through partnership, which is so exciting about DSO.
Caroline Blair:
There's a real sense of collaboration that keeps coming back into this. And that was sort of popped off a few times in that partnership collaboration. And it's almost as though this is it's only possible if we're all on board with that, as we do support this rapid growth of renewable energy sources and connecting to the grid. I suppose then can you talk us through some of the I don't know if this is maybe actually one for you again, David, but I'll let you decide or throughout there and see Grant, perhaps one for yourself, and talk us through the strategies, I guess, in the innovations that the DSO is implementing to speed up that process. What are the challenges and how do you make sure that you get a smooth transition?
Grant Spencr:
We talked already about her one size doesn't necessarily fit all. And having talked to so many industrial stakeholders in the last 12 months about flexibility, because that was one of the things we asked, how would you want to decarbonise, what you do are you look at energy efficiency, you know, which heat networks be attractive to you?
You know, it wasn't just do you want hydrogen electrification or to do CCS? One of the trouble with flexibility for industrial sites is if you say to them, would you like to have this third party remotely change what you do to suit their network? The answer is no, not at all, because that really doesn't work.
If I've got a paint curing process and the heat generation supports my paint curing process and I give people a lifetime guarantee my product, you don't get to mess with that. That's just not happening. But then the offer up other alternatives. This is why it's useful to talk to people you know, because you get something that works for them.
So they say, well, we used to operate flexibly. We had this thing called a triad payment, and we ran gas turbines of diesel engines on our site to give the electricity system the appearance of flexibility. And we got paid for doing that. So you could do that if you had access to hydrogen network, you could operate hydrogen, you know, turbines on site to reduce your electricity demand as a way of having the energy networks together.
The other thing that is, I think a really interesting innovation idea, which maybe we'll look at a bit more in this coming year, is that, as Nia said, you would historically set a maximum level for the network and then you designed around about that. But industry doesn't hit that maximum level. All the time. So therefore, if you were to profile their demand and instead of asking them to behave flexibly, you said, let's have a flexible definition of your requirements. So instead of being a one off number, it was actually a profile. Then if they agreed to sign up to that profile, they could potentially save themselves money, offer up capacity to the grid and not have to do anything different. All users use data and digital technology to improve your understanding of what they do, and use that to reduce their costs and free up capacity to the grid.
So that's working smarter. Yeah. So there's a real opportunity for innovation to help people do what they've always done. But because we understand it better, we can profile it better. Then we can have everybody work more efficiently together.
David Flynn:
Which is a perfect kind of segue way to what I'll say in terms of something that Spain have been doing, and we've been very happy to support them, at the University of Glasgow is how can they develop methods that enable their customers and allow them to kind of signpost opportunities that the network presents to them.
So something that we've done at the domestic scale is looking at the value of that smart meter data.
Caroline Blair:
As in the one in your home?
David Flynn:
The one in your home, which, you know, we keep a thrifty eye on and we do what we can to offset when the dishwasher goes on, get things on timer.
For the likes of a DSO, it really allows them to get a very well connected and dynamic appreciation of some of those new distributed generation projects that could be happening on the LV network, the EVs and the heat pumps, and with the smart meter data, there is an ability to say this area of the network is looking strong and healthy. It's got a lot of flexibility. We can tailor rewards and mechanisms in that space. Other areas the network might be under a bit of constraint. So that's when the handshake with the DNO may take place. When an area of network needs that reinforcement. But it's about being informed. It's about accessible mechanisms to that conversation and partnership and having those clear rewards for your, role in that flexibility.
Caroline Blaie:
Do you find that to be the case as well Nia in terms of from the user, the end user, whether that be industry or whether it be individual customers, that that is the best way is that we all understand exactly what we're doing in the why?
Nia Lowe:
Yes, it is. And I was I was going to pick up that both Grant and David have now both mentioned the word data and that that information flow is the, the key that makes all of this work. Because unless you actually know what is happening and you have access to that data and you can make informed decisions, none of this works. That data flow is two ways. And that that's probably the other big change that's been driven by DSO is that data sharing. So making data from the network, which traditionally would have just sat with the DNO, available to stakeholders to help them in their planning and their decision making so that that data flow is really critical. So that kind of digital transformation on the network to capture a lot more data because, you know, believe it or not, the lower voltages, actually, we have very little data coming back in terms of what was happening dynamically. The network pretty much kind of just flowed and kind of looked after itself. But that's not the case now.
Now, you know, we need to know what's happening on the network. We need that data coming in. We need to be able to share that data to enable all of this different interaction.
Caroline Blair:
Because if you don't have that information, you're running blind. We're still we're still 20 years behind.
Grant Spence:
And if you're looking at this forecast, I mean, that's where the relationship is so valuable. You know, to the point where having that, and also for the stakeholders to see value and advantage in them sharing their information. Yeah. We spent months trying to persuade some of the industrial sites to share information with us because they didn't necessarily see the value. But it's going into this year's DFES documentation. It'll go into the ED3, plan that SPEN will put to Ofgem.
It'll help inform the future infrastructure requirements that the regulator will consider. So it's providing evidence that we need infrastructure to allow industry to decarbonise in their region. So at an event last week, we had one of the major industrial sites coming up to myself and one of the SPEN colleagues, saying, we think about putting a new production line in by 2030 that would require we need X megawatts. Can we get that included in your profiles, please? Yeah. And instead of saying, let's have a town hall, let's have a stakeholder engagement meeting. Nobody's turned up. Nobody's engaged. If people see the value in engaging, actually they come to you.
Caroline Blair:
Because the information is what's shaping the future and the strategy which goes back to that point, you know, Nia you've mentioned there as well data, technology, digitisation, all of these components, David yourself, you’re probably positioned to talk about this too. What do the trends mean for the year. So as we've tapped into it there, but just if you could expand on that wee bit and talk about the opportunities and the challenges that they present.
David Flynn:
So in terms of the challenges, I mean, it is, it's a significant step change for the business and getting the business transformation and the architecture of the business ready as to be, a steward of this data and in a way, operationalise it for their and their stakeholders benefit.
So there are challenges with that, okay. And developing the robust tools and processes and governance.
Caroline Blair:
And getting people on board as well to that as Grant has just brilliantly encapsulated there too. And that is that has to be taken into consideration.
David Flynn:
And I think that's what's really exciting about the DSO. Were one of its primary functions is about, you know, creating, co-creating some new flexibility, market opportunities with stakeholders, improving barriers to entry.
So the incentive is there again, that key word that we keep saying it's about partnership. And it is very much enabled by that that digital medium. That is what connects the DSO to its customers and vice versa. Now, in terms of the opportunities, I mean, I think it's absolutely massive in terms of what this can do, both for customers.
So I'm going to cascade up the way, okay. That is an opportunity to insulate yourself, protect yourself more from energy price rises okay. Opportunities to sell where you have surplus energy. And if you cascade that up and again this no touches on that industrial interface. What the DSO can unlock and networks is really key to economic development okay.
Caroline Blair:
On a bigger scale?
David Flynn:
On a bigger scale energy, energy security, that sustainable energy where, you know, the UK is producing ideally, you know, a renaissance in manufacturing. Okay, with this, low to zero carbon energy that has available to it, at lowest cost point, because the biggest vulnerability customers have faced in the volatility of energy prices has been based on the geopolitical dynamics of the gas market.
Okay. So if we can unlock more of that domestic energy, every bit of energy we unlock into this network is safeguarding energy security. It's insulating us in terms of the unfavourable changes that can happen in the market prices. And that's just that's just the foundation of how we kind of unlock value moving forward.
Caroline Blair:
And allows you to retain and attract big industry as well, which is a key component too?
David Flynn:
Absolutely
Caroline Blair:
The bigger picture, as we talk about. We've unpacked a fair amount there. I, I suppose the thing I'm most intrigued by in summarising is what excites you most, based of what we've talked about or how your role fits in. What is it that gets you most excited about the future of distribution system operation?
Nia Lowe:
So this this is an opportunity the to do something different that hasn't really existed since probably just after the Second World War. You know, there was a massive expansion in the network, but that was that was just about building networks. This is completely different. You know, we're exploring new ways of doing things. You know, we’re exploring what helps people to take part in the industry. The industry feels like it's become much more inclusive in terms of kind of how we move forward as a country.
There are challenges, so some of it might be trying to find a way that suits people to interact with the network. So not everybody wants to do that themselves, but actually they might be happy for somebody to do it on their behalf. You know, it's unblocking some of those barriers. It's understanding, you know, how people kind of what they need to be able to kind of partake in this new network.
Yeah. One, one example we've talked about data and you think, oh, that's great data. You know, if we kind of just provide you all the data from, from the networks to help you solve problem solved, happy days, you know, and then, you know, we talk to, our stakeholders, we talk to local authorities. And actually they say to us, well, actually, that's quite difficult to use because your network, the boundaries of your network are completely different to our local authority boundaries and the geography comes into play.
And I mean, it's not. So we're like, okay, well, we hadn't talked about that. What we can do is we can actually give you files that are mapped to your geography. So we change the shapefiles for the local authorities. So the data's then easier to use. But you only get that through that conversation and that collaboration. So that's the exciting stuff for me at the moment. It's how we all move this forward together.
Caroline Blair:
What a great example of a very specific, very specific example of that need for collaboration in order to achieve this. It's not just lip service. This it cannot happen without that. Same question over to yourself Grant?
Grant Spence:
Oh crikey and I’ve had time to think about it as well. I, I still not sure got a good answer.
Caroline Blair:
Is it a excites you most about it?
I think it's the, the challenges for me way beyond you know, kind of after the Second World War, nobody has ever tried to do anything like this. The challenge is greater than, and I've been studying this to try and figure out what they did in the past, 100 years ago to build the first grid network, 132. Then they went to 275 400. We're wanting to do like the equivalent of, I guess flying the world's largest passenger airplane and whilst it's still at 30,000ft, make it at least twice the same size, bring on twice as many passengers and, and not threaten anybody with crashing and hitting the ground. You know, nobody's tried to do anything quite like this before.
If we can get it right, that will be a sizable achievement in itself. If we can do anything like optimal, then I don't think we quite understand quite what challenge we set ourselves. But that's why it's exciting.
Caroline Blair:
And it's an inevitable challenge is coming. It has to happen. So over to yourself then, how would you summarise?
David Flynn:
So the DSO prospect what I find so exciting. So I'm going to take a national view first and then step down. So we always hear this rhetoric about challenges in UK productivity and efficiency and competitiveness. And when you look at the growing, without the DSO in the landscape OK, we've had growing expenditure on energy dispatch and curtailment.
Okay. Bloomberg were forecasting. So that's energy we don't use but we pay for okay. And Bloomberg forecasted that this year it'd be 1.4 billion pounds. Okay. That is the money that we're forecasted to spend on energy that's not coupled to demand. And that really happens because you don't have that close partnership and collaboration with the demand centres, be it industrial, residential.
So at a national scale, that's exciting. Okay. The DSOs, I think, will have a key role to play on unlocking those inefficiencies and helping UK productivity. Okay. I think that will be the cascade effect. You'll see now if we bring it down, to the level of the everyday citizen, this is recalibrating the relationship with customers.
It's a bit like an energy citizenship moment. I've got a role now to play the energy transition and decarbonisation doesn't just happen to me. I can participate. It happens with me. My flexibility, my choices for an EV or a heat pump. I think it's really empowering. With that comes roles and responsibilities. Okay. But so for DSO, I think it really is exciting at that kind of customer stakeholder level.
And the aggregated value, the potential the DSO has at that UK scale is, is huge. And I think given the nature of the way we're structured and DSOs, some of those gains we're going to see in the short term, not necessarily the medium and long term, we're going to see, gains made in the short term. So that's very exciting.
And on the point that you meet Grant, which is very good about look at the timelines. When radical change in infrastructure transformation has happened. And it's not to put pressure on the DSO team. The sharp end is we are demanding that people create better and quicker than ever before on a critical network. So it's challenging, but the UK has the experience and talent to deliver it.
Grant Spence:
I'm going to risk jumping back in again because that's something I didn't aay, but that was really key that came out of talking to people. Industry might have published plans to decarbonise their operations for 2040. You know, corporate aspirations. Almost all of them have come up with interim plans to achieve maybe 30% reduction by 2030 or a percentage by 2035.
They need access to infrastructure to let them make those interim reductions. And if they can't achieve those initial interim reductions, will they stick around to do the whole thing or will we de-industrialise? It is really, really important that we don't think that net zero or 2050 is something that we have got long time to do something about. There's an urgent need to be taking the first steps now.
Otherwise we're going to start seeing the consequences of not taking those first steps and not taking the action.
Caroline Blair:
Well on the theme then to finish off on the theme of net zero, I want you to imagine that we've achieved net zero. In one word, how do you feel? David?
David Flynn:
Elated
Grant Spence:
Probably that and exhausted, hopefully.
Caroline Blair:
And Nia the final word with you?
Nia Lowe:
Well, I'm going to stick Es and I’m going to go excited.
Caroline Blair:
What a great way to finish a very empowering conversation. Thank you very much indeed. To Nia Lowe, to David Flynn, and of course, to Grant Spence.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Powering Conversations. We hope you found this episode to be both informative and engaging, and make sure to tune in to our next episode. And don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And to learn more about SP Energy Networks, visit www.spenergynetworks.co.uk